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Dr. Butson (Director of the Canadian Galloway Association)	Dr. Butson.
Andy LeMaistre	Dr. Butson, how are you sir?
Dr. Butson	Very well.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good, if you could proceed. Thank you.
Dr. Butson	I was interested in the comments today so far. Mr. Al Tietig mentioned the business of grading up being controlled and restricted to Galloways. In 1987 the Canadian Galloway association which has, as part of its membership Belted Galloways, decided that we would allow grading up with a solid color, either bull or cow, with a belted animal. This has been tried. The animals would be registered as half belted, three quarters belted, seven eighths, etc. There is no regulation at present to admit these animals into the herd book proper for the Belteds. I have been extremely disappointed, personally. I have had about twelve animals that have been cross-bred in this manner. We have had a few good belts but by and large they either turn out incomplete belts, solid black, or solid dun. I have been rather disappointed. Now, we have tried to get information from the other Canadian breeders who have been doing this cross breed between Galloways solid color and Belteds and I have been very frustrated by the total apathy of the Canadian breeders in giving me the information. We have had twelve registered as half bred or three quarter bred Belted Galloway in a Belted Galloway-Galloway cross. I very much suspect that this is going to come to nothing and I would be a little on my guard against promoting this too much. At present I have absolutely no success, except for two of us, who have been prepared to say what our percentage of failures has been in such a cross breeding up program and I get a lot of information across the coffee table or with a glass of beer but that is anecdotal and from memory and is not always at all reliable. So much for that. The other thing which I would welcome guidance on is what type of cattle should we be aiming for. We see, especially in North America, the longer legged cattle which are considerably larger than the standard Galloway, the traditional Galloway of Britain, and I just have severe doubts if this is really the direction in which this breed should be going. More and more the housewife is wanting smaller cuts. The question of calving ease, I think that if we are going to go for bulls that are the type of bull that gets the prize in North America, it will result in a lot of problems with calving ease. Or a lot of difficult calving. I would also like some direction in knowing should we be aiming for larger hind ends for our Belted Galloway. By and large they do tend to have a small hind end and it is the hindquarter that sells best. I am well aware that there are many who like the Belted Galloway for their appearance, but I think we should be concentrating on a viable, vital, beef breed. That is all I have to say. Thank you very much.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you Dr. Butson. Could I have another participant who would like to make a statement?
Graeme Clinton	Graeme Clinton from New Zealand here.
Andy LeMaistre	Mr. Graeme Clinton.
Graeme Clinton	Yes.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good, sir.
Graeme Clinton	We used to upgrade quite a few years ago, and we discovered that after the second or third generation of crossing, recess sets in and animals have not got the conformation or type that they should have. They still look like cattle but they have not got a really good type.
Andy LeMaistre	Mr. Clinton, could I ask one question just for my own clarification and perhaps for some of the other participants, as to what kind of a breeding up program, what was the original first crosses.
Graeme Clinton	That particular time they were Angus. 30 years ago we abandoned the Angus Crossbreeding programme and bought all of the available commercial Belted Galloway that were for sale and built up the herd that way with a better type of animal.
Andy LeMaistre	Angus?
Graeme Clinton	Yeah, and after the second or third generation crossing recess sets in.
??	I am not familiar with that term. What do you mean by 'crossing recess'?
Graeme Clinton	They have not got the quality of straight Galloway.
Andy LeMaistre	They do not have the quality of a straight Galloway.
Graeme Clinton	By using a commercial Galloway resulted in a far better looking animal than a crossbred one.
Andy LeMaistre	Mr. Clinton, this is Andy LeMaistre, again just to clarify the point, what you are saying is that in the multiple crossing that the hybrid vigor just goes away.
Graeme Clinton	Yes, the hybrid vigor is there with the first cross but then after that it seems to disappear. For the registered animals we tried to get the bigger back ends on them and eliminate any white feet. That always seems to come up ever so often, the white feet. We have just been trying to get them with better back ends and keep the size in them and we seem to be doing all right that way so far. We have a few on the upgrading scheme now, from commercial Belted Galloways but some of them are not as good as we would like them to be. So we just put them out with the commercial cattle.
Andy LeMaistre	I see.
Graeme Clinton	Other than that we just fine points to try to keep the standard of the type and the good quality ones.
Andy LeMaistre	To try to keep the existing standard that is used in New Zealand currently, to keep that standard in place?
Graeme Clinton	Yes.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good.
Graeme Clinton	I think that is about all at the moment.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much Mr. Clinton. Could I have another participant that would like to comment?
Marlin Sherbine	Yeah, Andy, Marlin Sherbine here, United States. I am a late comer. I am about midway through the thing here. I agree with Dr. Butson, I am a newcomer but I have selected animals from quite a few herds and I am not in favor of crossing five generations to get to something that you can register. We have been working with our best females doing semen and embryo work to come up with I think is the best and I have not gotten there yet. I need a lot more than the four years I have been working at it so far. Also the commercial aspect, the mis-marked, the excess males, I feel we have to develop a market for them beyond actually taking them to market which has not been good.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much Mr. Sherbine. Could I have another participant that would like to comment?
Hugh Crawford (Director of the Canadian Galloway Association)	Hugh Crawford from Alberta.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, Mr. Crawford.
Hugh Crawford	I am a Galloway breeder: the Belted Galloway part of our herd is quite small. I have, however, had some formal training in genetics and as such have been called upon by the Canadian Galloway Association on several occasions to assist them with rules and regulations and make comments and suggestions. It is from this base that I would like to make a few comments. For the most part I would disagree with Mr. Chatfield and Mr. Butson. I would suggest that the significant percentage of the mis-marking problems that the breed now has are a direct resuit of poorly designed upbreeding programs in the past. The genetics that causes the belt is dominant, thus it can mask other white colour pattern genetics. From the start upbreeding has been allowed using cows of any breed. There should have been a hard fast rule that those animals had to have been solid coloured. Given that that rule was not in place the Belted Galloway has picked up a significant amount of genetics for other colour patterns. It is the genetics for those other colour patterns that is causing white feet and the mis-shaping of many belts. It will be difficult to correct the mis-marking problems that are now evident but they are the result of not having carefully planned the upbreeding programs at the start. The fact that the belt is dominant is a complication. Given that belting is dominant it can cover multitude of undesirable colour patterns that can then re-appear in later generations. Each and every time that a Belted Galloway is crossed with a solid coloured animal and the progeny are not properly belted either: (a) The Belted Galloway was not homozygous for belting or (b The Belted Galloway carried extraneous genetics for other colour patterns. The Canadian Galloway Association attempted to address problems in its Appendix for Belted Galloway crosses. When the Appendix was opened it was stipulated that the only animals other than Belted Galloway that could be used were purebred Galloway. Hopefully, thus, not bringing in other colour pattern genetics. The Canadian program also includes a procedure for identifying homozygous belted animals. The procedure has yet to be used by a Belted Galloway breeder in Canada but it is simple and is based on sound genetic principles. It is a program that could and would work cheaply and effectively if used properly. It seems to me that the Belted Galloway Breeder has two things to be selecting for—beef aesthetics. It is thus very important that the regulations of your Associations are based on sound genetic principles--not just the latest fad in cattle up-breeding. I would suggest that the majority of the colour pattern problems today in the Belted Galloway are a direct result of having failed to seek out and apply sound genetic principles in the past. That may sound a little harsh but I am quite convinced.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good, Mr. Crawford. Do you have any additions to that?
Hugh Crawford	Not at the moment.
Andy LeMaistre	Well, I think that is fine. If I were to summarize that in terms of an issue to be addressed, would you agree that we need to have a better genetic program or a better understanding of the genetics that surround the Belted Galloway breed?
Hugh Crawford	To me that is the most important point. Unfortunately, given that that was not done in the past, the Belted Galloway as a breed is now carrying a great deal of what is, in effect, genetic garbage. Belted Galloways carry a load of extraneous genetic information that has inadvertently put it in their gene pool by not having a sound up-breeding program from the start. Damage has been done, but it is not too late to start to correct it.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, and I can appreciate that and I think that is an excellent point to make. Thank you very much Mr. Crawford. Is there another participant that would like to comment?
Bob Maddern (Federal Councilor, Galloway Cattle Society of Australia)	Yes, Bob Maddern here from Australia.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, sir.
Bob Maddern	I was a professional geneticist before breeding Belted Galloways. I could not hear Hugh Crawford terribly clearly and I think I am agreeing with him in that there are other genetic factors causing these other white patterns, like the white feet, in the Belted Galloway. I am very interested in cooperation and collecting data between breeders on broken belts and white feet and looking at the genetics of it and how we might remove it.
Andy LeMaistre	Excellent. Thank you very much for that statement. Did you have other comments to make or simply as it relates to the genetics?
Bob Maddern	Yeah, my comments are similar to Mr. Butson on the grading up. I found a very poor percentage of properly marked animals from upgrading programs to Galloways. Thank you.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much sir. What was you name again sir?
Bob Maddern	Bob Maddern, Australia.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much. Is there another participant that would like to comment?
Bill Storrie (Council Member Belted Galloway Cattle Society)	Good evening to you men. This is Bill Storrie from Scotland.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, sir.
Bill Storrie	Can you hear me?
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, sir. I can. I am sorry I did not catch your name though.
Bill Storrie	Bill Storrie.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, sir, Mr. Storrie. I received your letter.
Bill Storrie	You got my letter, well good. First of all let me apologize, I thought I was not going to be able to take part in this conference and I took the liberty of sending an introductory letter to all of the participants and hoped it would serve as an introduction.
Andy LeMaistre	Well, I wanted to compliment you on the letter and I did receive it and had a chance to read it. Thank you very much.
Bill Storrie	I did not know whether everybody would receive it before the conference.
Andy LeMaistre	Please go ahead with your statement, sir.
Bill Storrie	Well I am inclined to agree with Hugh Crawford. Well, first of all, let me say I am a conservationist 100%. I work with an enclosed nucleus, and I have not gone out to seek an out cross for a long time now. I started off with foundation animals and we have not had the the white foot problem because the lines that were giving us the white foot problem were just discarded. And then we kept everything and everything is very tightly inbred and we do not have a problem. Every time we try to introduce an out cross we bring back white feet and that, I think, coincides with Hugh Crawford and Bob Maddern's statements. Now I am principally concerned with increasing the number by embryo transfer and IVM/F and one of my friends in Canada there and Mr. Chatfield, have got some. Now there is enormous potential, but the only way that I can see to get the mark on the ground so that feeders and slaughterers can recognize a Beltie is to get the mis-marked bulls out working among commercial cattle. I do not mean Belties, I mean anybody needing a bull. If they could be encouraged to use a Beltie with a white foot, and the slaughterer could then recognize the value of the slaughter animal simply because he has got a mark on it, i.e. a belt. Now the Herefords have got a good initiative with their Baldy beef. What they are saying is that if you put a white face on an animal and you demonstrate it is a good commercial animal, it benefits the pedigree stock breeder and then his bulls come into demand, not necessarily his best bulls, but the bulls that he would normally slaughter. I think that is a way forward, get more animals on the ground and I prefer to have a closed herd book, for the original pool in the same way that I have got a closed nucleus from the stock that I have got. We breed heavy animals and I mean heavy. We have got cows weighing 750 kilos. That is a big, big animal. But, Dick Butson makes the point that big animals give high birth weights and high birth weights are not necessarily what we are looking for in a commercial situation. We should try to get big Beltie bulls used on optimum weight range cows so that we reduce the calving difficulty. Now if we go for EPD based on birth weight alone, we will simply compound the problem. And we need to bolt something else on the EPD, such as the mothering ability of the dam, longevity of the dam, and these other things which are unique Belted Galloway survival characteristics and if we do that it will just automatically follow that we have a market for the big, heavy bull to use on the range cow. I think a lot of the points have been covered.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, well thank you very much Mr. Storrie. Therefore, an issue would be the development of an EPD system whether or not it is the standard system that might be used by all the other breeds or one that is modified for Belted Galloways, this makes a lot of sense. At least it would give us a common ground by which to talk internationally about what it is we have or do not have.
Bill Storrie	Could I just make another addendum to my statement, Mr. Chairman?
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, go right ahead Mr. Storrie.
Bill Storrie	We have got to look at Belties as the Beltie that will do best in New Zealand, Australia, Western America, Canada or the U.K. will be essentially a different kind of Beltie. I do not think that my big, heavy Belties here would necessarily do very well in Australia, because they are selected in a totally different environment and I think we really have got to cooperate internationally and recognize that maybe best of a small Beltie cow on rangeland in America, a heavier Beltie cow in New Zealand or wherever and certainly where we have a lot of good grass here, to go for the heavier Beltie.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good, that is an excellent point. Thank you very much, Mr. Storrie.
Guy MacPherson	Could I ask you a question?
Andy LeMaistre	What I would like to do if possible, I am not sure who spoke to ask the question ...
Guy MacPherson	MacPherson, New Zealand.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, Mr. MacPherson. I think what I would like to do is let all the participants that wished to make a statement, and then if you would reserve your question, what we will do is come back to address it after everyone has spoken. Does that make good sense? Is there another participant that would like to comment?
Arie Eyles (Vice President, Galloway Cattle Society of Australia)	Yes, Arie Eyles from Australia.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, sir. Go right ahead.
Arie Eyles	We were lucky enough in the late seventies to be able to buy our base herd from New Zealand based on the Hikawei stud. That was the name of the stud in New Zealand that had been in existence for 26 years over there and we were fortunate enough even though we bought belted cows that were not very great in size, they were very well conformed and very heavy in their beef content for the size of the animal and they had good back ends. We have line bred to Boreland bulls that we were fortunate enough to get through cows that were imported into New Zealand and we have aimed at breeding, which we strongly believe in, a good line of cows, well formed, good conformation, milking ability, good feet and good back ends. The aspect that we are finding difficult because of the lack of bloodlines available here is to gradually increase the size of our cattle. What we do not want to do, and we do not want to see people doing, is increasing size too dramatically because we believe this brings in structural faults. We have gotten to the stage now where we are finding it difficult to be able to obtain a bloodline we can use without inbreeding. We congratulate this conference concept because we feel that it would be fantastic to have a worldwide genetic bank that is approved worldwide so that we can buy other bulls with confidence that are acceptable worldwide. This is the way for the breed to go forward. And that is basically what I would like to say. I agree with most of the statements, I think we can argue about white feet and discuss it and so forth, but the different breeders have different policies and I think each stud person is responsible for the keep of his cattle and people breed what they particularly like. It is possible to put good butts into the cattle and the greatest difficulty now is obtaining outcrosses when we have gone far enough with our line breeding.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good, Mr. Eyles, thank you very much for those comments. Is there another participant that would like to comment?
Dwight Howard	Andy, Dwight Howard.
Andy LeMaistre	Mr. Howard. How are you sir?
Dwight Howard	I worked with Belted Galloways for 28 years here at Aldermere farm, and we have been on performance testing ever since '55, we have put rear-ends on our cows and bulls. We have mostly gone on conformation, growth and if it had a little white on its foot well we kind of forgot it. We have had to do this because our best cows that we have kept in a line that goes way, way back to Scotland had a little bit of white on their feet. At first we tried, we sold everything that had white, and then we got to looking at our records and we were selling our best animals. So, therefore we have changed our policy and are going by performance, to a great extent. I do not think that we are ever going to get rid of white feet. I think it would be a great mistake if we did because we are going to lose some of the greatest genetics that the Belted Galloway cattle have ever had. I guess that is what I would like to put across. Thank you.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much, Dwight. Is there another participant that would like to comment?
George Sproat	Yes, George Sproat from Scotland.
Andy LeMaistre	Mr. Sproat.
George Sproat	It is very nice to hear the the Boreland Herd getting a mention in the world because we have been exporting since 1947. We sent the first ones to New Zealand in 1967, Galloways in 1968, and I think it was '53 that we sent the first ones to America. Regarding white feet, around the mid-thirties in Scotland there was a bull going around the show circuit and it was at one show that the white foot was discovered when he was about seven years old. Now that bull did a lot of damage to bring white feet into the breed. This bull was later slaughtered after a kind of case about it once it was discovered that it had about seven inches of white. Which had been covered up for seven years at the time it appeared at the show. That bull did a lot of damage and it is going to take an awful long time to eliminate. The only way it can be eliminated is by people culling the white feet out or put them to commercial side, but in regard to Dwight's comment, invariably the white footed beast is the best beast in the place and we tried, as our society, of which I am the chairman of the council in this country, we tried to eliminate about six years ago and we were just about to get it passed when it all fell through. Unfortunately the white footed heifers are still allowed to be registered but we still do not encourage them. White footed bulls are not allowed or registered. Now in regard to grading up, having seen what has come in from Canada in the Galloways, Aberdeen Angus and the Herefords that have been using multinational breeds such as Chianina, Brahman, Marchieana and all the rest of it, some are like overgrown Holsteins. In some cases Holsteins have been used in the Angus. When you see some of the samples at the big national show, i.e. Royal Show at Stoneleigh, England some are like just planks of wood and that is not the way to upgrade. If we are going to upgrade the Belties they have got to come through I would say the Galloway breed and possibly another self colored animal, but not the Continental type. Because the Continental type will make them too big and in this economic day and age the bigger the animal the more it costs to feed. Regarding getting a Beltie into the butcher's, who the hell knows what it is once the skin is off it. Once it is in the shop, it can be anything. Once it is in the slaughter house there is no knowing what it is, once the skin is off it. Thank you very much and congratulations on your conference.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much Mr. Sproat, appreciate your comments. Is there another participant that would like to comment? I hear silence.
Mary McClellan (Secretary of the Belted Galloway Society)	Andy?
Andy LeMaistre	Yes.
Mary McClellan	Mary McClellan.
Andy LeMaistre	Mary McClellan. Yes?
Mary McClellan	On carcass evaluation.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, ma'am.
Mary McClellan	I think we ought to spend a little time and money finding out what we really have in the way of a beef animal. I think it is very important to consider the cholesterol content, fat content, and be able to make a statement that really we can back up as to what we really have in a beef animal. And if we do have what the modern market wants then we should publicize it with data to back it up and proof. That is really all I have to say.
Andy LeMaistre	Very good. Thank you, Ms. McClellan. Is there another participant that would like to comment?
Dick Butson	Dick Butson. Can I speak to that point?
Andy LeMaistre	Dick, Mr. Butson, if we could first, because we are fast running out of time to allow initial statements, if there are any other people who would like to make just an initial statement then we would revert back to specific questions about various issues. Is there another participant that would like to comment?
Darrell Riemer (President of American Galloway Breeders Association)	Yes, this is Darrell Riemer from the American Galloway Breeders Association.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, Mr. Riemer.
Darrell Riemer	I guess the biggest point I want to make on EPD is that there is such a small number of Galloways worldwide that most of the people are not going to be following the EPDs for their own choices. The EPD is basically to try to get the cattle out in the commercial herds, where it will do the breed the most good instead. I mean, you cannot survive as a breed unless you get the commercial man involved. I guess that is the main comment that I have. Thanks.
Andy LeMaistre	Thank you very much, Mr. Riemer. Are there other comments from other participants at this time?
John McIlwraith (Director of Canadian Galloway Association)	John McIlwraith.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes, John, please.
John McIlwraith	How are you, Andy?
Andy LeMaistre	I am very well, sir. Please.
John McIlwraith	Thank you for the time. As far as EPDs goes if a trait cannot be weighed or measured any other traits are subjective. You can set one goal that way, but if you are looking for mothering ability and stuff like that, that is only in the eye of the breeder. You have got so many traits that you want to go through. When you want to pick out a breed standard. As far as the belt goes, when I was looking for some cattle for a fella, the first question he asked me afterwards, after I had seen the cattle, he said, "How was the belt?" and I said, "I think you are going to have to call my wife and ask her because I did not see the belt, all I was looking at was the animal." George Sproat just kind of hit me, I am shocked, he is telling me that Canadian Galloways are cross-bred, meaning solid color cattle, but that is his opinion. We would like to try and upgrade our cattle strictly without white feet. I agree with Hugh Crawford and his statement and it was interesting to hear from George Sproat about the bull that was used in Britain in the 30s. I would like to hang on and listen to any questions anybody has about EPDs. I would really like to go in that direction, have a worldwide measuring, even though there are different conditions that the cattle are kept under.
Andy LeMaistre	Yes.
John McIlwraith	Which is especially evident in Canada. We can use one type of breed in Eastern Canada where you need a different type animal in Western Canada.
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